The best online Debate website - DebateIsland.com! The only Online Debate Website with Casual, Persuade Me, Formalish, and Formal Online Debate formats. We’re the Leading Online Debate website. Debate popular topics, Debate news, or Debate anything! Debate online for free!
Obama is a Christian?
in Politics
Debra AI Prediction
Arguments
  Considerate: 62%  
  Substantial: 42%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 98%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 8.36  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
Howdy, Joe. Your claims run against some things I understand about him. I thought he had a Muslim father and an Atheist mother. Under Islam, if your father is Muslim, you are automatically counted as one as well. Conversion is not permitted. (Practiced, yes.) At what point did he convert to Christianity? Who raised him as such?
People put their hand on the Bible all the time when swearing legal oaths. I don't buy for a second that every person who swore on a Bible to enter public office has been a Christian. Who would feel the weight of lying while putting their hand on something? The one who believes in it, or the one who doesn't? I hear atheists and non-religious people "swear to God" all the time. Doesn't mean anything to them.
I don't really see that commitment. He supports abortion. Privately looks down upon those who "cling to their Bibles" when times are hard. Publicly criticizes Protestants for the Crusades? Publicly supports homosexuality and anarchy. He also lied to me. I was REALLY REALLY hoping to keep my plan. Nope. $220 dollars per month with a $7000 deductible one month. The next, $860 per month with a $12,000 deductible the next.
  Considerate: 83%  
  Substantial: 79%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 87%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 6.74  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 66%  
  Learn More About Debra
The argument that Obama's father is Muslim makes Obama an automatic Muslim has two big problems:
1) This only applies to children. Once a child reaches puberty, they can make up their own mind about their religion. "'When the young boy reaches puberty, he is given the choice between taking on the religion of his father or that of his mother. Whichever he chooses, it becomes his religion."'
2) Even if the above wasn't the case, this only applies if you yourself implicitly believe in Muslim religious beliefs over fundamental human rights. The US Constitution grants the right to Freedom of Religion and under US law adults choose what denomination they follow and can change at will. If you believe in the US constitution then people with Muslim parents can choose for themselves what their beliefs they follow, the only reason you would believe otherwise is if you personally hold the Quran to be more important than the Constitution.
No Incontrovertible proof to the opposite
You're right to say that Obama swearing ont he bible doesn't automatically make him Christian. However he doesn't need to prove he's Christian. When someone tells you your religious beliefs (like Obama being Christian) they don't need to prove that to you. To say they aren't is to accuse them of being a liar, a serious accusation you need to back up. It isn't an area where there is expected to be dispute unless someone can bring hard proof to the opposite. It's not on Obama to prove his Christianity, it's on anyone who doubts it to prove his lack of Christianity.
Acceptence of abortion, homosexuality, etc
This seems to be an argument for him not being exactly the same type of Christian as you, not him not being a Christian, There are many Christian denominations holding to a wide variety of beliefs. As far as I am aware, none of the things you mention in any way exclude someone from being Christian.
Lots of people think he is Muslim
Argumentum ad populem logical fallacy.
  Considerate: 64%  
  Substantial: 87%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 95%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 12.08  
  Sources: 2  
  Relevant (Beta): 75%  
  Learn More About Debra
  Considerate: 74%  
  Substantial: 27%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 94%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 8.72  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 99%  
  Learn More About Debra
You make many valid points:
Just because his father was a Muslim, does not mean that he is as well.
Claiming to be a Christian is not to be called into doubt without evidence.....(more on that later)
Beliefs on specific issues do not discount one as a believer...(more on that later)
Yes, that CAN be an ad populem argument, that many others are confused, but I did not intend it that way. I brought up the polling to show that I'm not the only one to be confused. That doesn't make me right, but I'm not an isolated case to be dismissed, as the other DDO user did. A lot of effort has been expended by many journalists to defend the President's claims on his own religion. That's all I meant there.
Why I'm not convinced yet:
Obama may believe in God, and even fancy himself a Christian, but his actions and attitudes are very much not what I would expect from one. If someone says they are a Christian, they WILL make mistakes and do things wrong here and there, but with him, I see many actions that I find downright deplorable, and no sign of regret for doing them.
Let's start with some lies:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/obama-promised-transparency-but-his-administration-is-one-of-the-most-secretive/2016/05/24/5a46caba-21c1-11e6-9e7f-57890b612299_story.html?utm_term=.c092bf3d1167
Or were they just incompetencies? Currently, I have a hard time believing that. The ACA had already been written, and Obama didn't say "Oops, sorry, I was incorrect about that," or "I"m sorry, we won't be able to do everything I promised because of X." Especially with the ACA, he insisted he said something with a caveat which he had never previously mentioned. His signature bill had long been written. And someone who wrote that part of the bill surely could have privately corrected him.
It was well known that the ACA was written in an opaque and intentionally deceptive manner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Gruber_(economist)#.22Grubergate.22_videos_controversy
Yet the president never backed down from the ACA, specifically the deceptive parts.
I don't like being overloaded with things to respond to, so I will get to the positions on moral topics and attitude indicators later, so as not to overload you.
  Considerate: 82%  
  Substantial: 75%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 94%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 8.5  
  Sources: 5  
  Relevant (Beta): 51%  
  Learn More About Debra
Why wouldn't a Christian lie? All Christians are meant to be sinners who are redeemened through their belief in Jesus. You can have mass murderers who are Christians. Lying doesn't mean someone is not a Christian.
As it says in Romans
"“There is no one righteous, not even one;"
...
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
...
" for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Indeed, didn't Jesus say "let he who is without Sin cast the first stone"? Isn't it "Unchristian" of you to cast aspersions on another person's Christianity for failing and being sinful as all mankind is meant to me? Should we therefore doubt your Christianity?
I mean that's if you accept those as lies at all. I didn't sit through every one, but a lot of it just seemed to be politically charged accusations. Like the first video says that obvious there hasn't been an Obama recovery because the unemployment rate has been above 8% for however many months. The thing is the unemployment rate actually spiked to 10% as a result of the 2008 crisis. Under Obama's presidency that unemployment rate turned around at the end of 2009 and continually decreased. It's not that the economy wasn't recovering, it's that this video from RepublicanSenators has a stake in presenting Obama as bad.
  Considerate: 61%  
  Substantial: 80%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 88%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.5  
  Sources: 1  
  Relevant (Beta): 82%  
  Learn More About Debra
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/29/us/as-the-obamas-celebrate-christmas-rituals-of-faith-stay-on-the-sidelines.html
If he is a Christian, he's pretty inactive, and fails enough I have to believe he's not trying very hard. You're right, I can't know. But he's done a lousy enough job to give me enough doubt.
  Considerate: 70%  
  Substantial: 69%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 88%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 8.96  
  Sources: 1  
  Relevant (Beta): 57%  
  Learn More About Debra
You can support homosexuality and be a Christian.
  Considerate: 39%  
  Substantial: 28%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 89%  
  Sentiment: Neutral  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.3  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 96%  
  Learn More About Debra
Yes, you are correct, you can. In fact, you can technically do anything and be a Christian. But as Paul said, "I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive.." And, "But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints;" But that isn't the biggest issue, in my mind. There are a lot of Christians who disagree on doctrinal issues. Could you, or someone else please explain how he did not consistently lie about the "if you like your plan you can keep your plan" charade?
Assuming he is a Believer, he supports homosexuality despite millions of Christians making it clear that is not the right thing to do, let alone the Bible saying so. He also unapologetically lied about the ACA. When finally caught because Jonathon Gruber spilled the beans when he thought no one was watching, and the first big deadline came where millions of Americans LOST their coverage and could no longer even access their own plan, he added a caveat to his promise that he had repeated so many times. A caveat, which completely nullified his promise, and which he never made clear that was his intention in any way before then. He is an unapologetic liar who supports sexual immorality. If he had been a Bible thumper before all this, I suspect everyone would have his head on a pike for hypocrisy. But so many people, such as Bill Marr, who really have a problem with Christians, don't seem to have any problem with him. Probably because they know, like so many other public officials before him, his religion is just a show to placate the gullible.
  Considerate: 61%  
  Substantial: 79%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 91%  
  Sentiment: Negative  
  Avg. Grade Level: 9.76  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 81%  
  Learn More About Debra
And millions agreeing with homosexuality. I think you might need to get an update on just how much the Christian view of homosexuality has changed.
Firstly, I would argue that the Bible does not go against homosexuality. It does, however, go against Pagan temple sex rituals, prostitution, fornication, and rape.
And nowhere in the Bible does it say homosexuality is sexually immoral. In fact, it would make no sense FOR it to say homosexuality is immoral, as the word was not created until 1948 AD and the actual idea (to straight men at least) of two people actually having reciprocative feelings of love for one another was not an idea that entered minds of heterosexuals until 1900 AD.
Gang-rape was existent. As was boy prostitution. But two men having feelings and love for each-other was not even introduced as a possibility for heterosexuals in Biblical times.
  Considerate: 65%  
  Substantial: 73%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 97%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 11.52  
  Sources: 0  
  Relevant (Beta): 81%  
  Learn More About Debra
I suppose I don't mind if you're not here for the main argument. This could also be interesting. I agree that someone MAY be a Christian and support homosexuality, but I don't see how you can be consistent with the Bible and do so.
"And millions agreeing with homosexuality. I think you might need to get an update on just how much the Christian view of homosexuality has changed."
I used the ad populem argument on purpose, with the extra note of "let alone the Bible saying so." My point being that even if he is merely a Christian with an unorthodox view on a few things, and he hasn't found that part of the Bible that would change his view, there are many Christians who put up serious opposition to gay marriage, openly practicing homosexuals in the military, requiring insurance to cover gender reassignment, etc., that should be enough to make a man who pays close attention to current events reexamine the issue and discuss it with his fellow believers in an orderly fashion, rather than just saying "I'm doing it this way. Forget you Brothers and Sisters." (Not an actual quote)
Love was not reciprocated before 1900? Just me, now, I find that to be a very shocking claim. I'll counter with a few well known examples. Jane Austen, though not a recipient of that reciprocation, wrote many romantic novels, and she died in 1817. Pride and Prejudice was all about the competing courtship of two men for Ms. Bennett. And it is considered historical fiction because it is period accurate (being written in that period), and it was not considered a bizarre outlandish fiction for that type of romance and courtship to take place. On the reality side of things, there was the love between George Washington and Sally Fairfax, and then later in life, Martha.
http://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/biography/washington-stories/passion-and-integrity-the-loves-of-george-washington/
http://www.mountvernon.org/george-washington/martha-washington/george-marthas-courtship/
Then there was the more well documented love between his Vice President and Abigail Adams:
http://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety.com/ageless-love-story-john-abigail-adams/
We could go back further, with Romeo and Juliet, which is considered a timeless example of young love. It was not considered extremely odd, but compelling because everyone could relate to the sometimes foolish passions of young love. There's also Marc Antony and Cleopatra, and King Solomon and the Shulamite in Song of Solomon in the Bible.
As for the word "homosexual," according to Wolfram Alpha, the word was invented in 1892.
https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=homosexual&wal=header
However, the modern word for any thing is just a current phonetic representation of the idea. Homosexuality is clearly condemned in the Bible:
Leviticus 18:22
1 Timothy 1:10
Romans 1:26-27
  Considerate: 85%  
  Substantial: 82%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 94%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.4  
  Sources: 4  
  Relevant (Beta): 15%  
  Learn More About Debra
My apologies for some mix-ups. I realized I did not look over my comment very well and have made multiple errors. But I will start from the beginning.
Firstly, I don't know why you included transgenders in this argument. There is a very explicit difference between transgenders and homosexuals.
And here come my mistakes.
I forgot to include "two people of the same sex". So it would say "...and the actual idea (to straight men at least) of two people of the same sex having reciprocative feelings of love for one another was not an idea that entered the minds of heterosexuals..." and then here is where I made another error, which it would be corrected to "until late 1800's to early 1900's".
The reference to 1948 was yet another mistake on my behalf (I really was not paying attention to my argument, I apologize), in which it was supposed to be the year 1946 in which the word first ever entered the Bible.
Now, my favorite parts: Leviticus 18:22
1 Timothy 1:10
The explanation for this one is completely too long, so I found a site that had the information.
https://www.gaychurch.org/homosexuality-and-the-bible/the-bible-christianity-and-homosexuality/
(And yes, it is biased. However, it does provide evidence for each and every claim)
Romans 1:26-27
Romans is taken from Paul's philosophy on unbridled passion. It was pagan idolatry and temple sex rituals among heterosexuals that was the focus of Paul's issue. Sexual orientation was not even discovered yet, so while same-sex behavior existed (almost exclusively pederasty or prostitution) it had nothing to do with gay people.
I do hope this makes better sense than my last horribly-written argument.
  Considerate: 80%  
  Substantial: 70%  
  Spelling & Grammar: 93%  
  Sentiment: Positive  
  Avg. Grade Level: 10.1  
  Sources: 1  
  Relevant (Beta): 17%  
  Learn More About Debra